Karate de Okinawa

shimmeringreflection Says:

Feb 25, 2012 - I'm old too, a Japanese major who lived there for 5 years, and have done karate for ages. Qualifications and age aside, I'm not sure we're arguing the same thing. Karate is indeed budo (at least it was later on). As the last generation of the Samurai class, Funakoshi Gichin in his book "Karate-do, My Way of Life", dubbed his karate karate-do, after bu-do. Karatedo (the martial way of life) became more than just karate-jutsu, a bujutsu (military/fighting techniques).

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Feb 25, 2012 - If you do not have an objective view point, you may never understand. Karate is Okinawan, not Japanese. The Japanese gutted all of their arts because of the edicts of the Meiji Restoration. If you lived in Japan and never trained in the Okinawan art you may have never been exposed to karate. I have trained in both, Japanese "karate" can't hold a candle and the JKA is simply a farce. A lie believed by millions is still simply a lie. Look up tatemae.

shimmeringreflection Says:

Feb 26, 2012 - @IEKUKATAKA私が建前というのは数十年まえにも覚えました。　辞書をひかなくてもいいわけです。Anyway, on the whole we probably agree. Funakoshi was Okinawan albeit of the samurai class and lumped his 'karate' into budo due to the parallels he drew between the way of life in both karate and budo.　Besides, he thought of this way before JKA politics got in the way. Off topic now, but I find other deliberate contortions of history more annoying, such as some Japanese claiming Mas Oyama was born in Tokyo!

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Feb 26, 2012 - Nihon go kanji wa wakatimasin, gomenasai. The reading I have done on Funakoshi leads me to believe he was of Okinawan shizokou and may not have been samurai. However, it appears he immersed himself in being "Japanese" about 1889 or so and it fits that the budo philosophy may have been at least toyed with. In any event, it also appears he despised the kendo of budo and proposed tournaments of Nakayama which makes me think the philosophies of budo may 2

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Feb 26, 2012 - 2 not have set well with him much at all. That being said, films of his own training make it abundantly clear that his karate is not that of the JKA and his own published works deal with his karate as jutsu based not "do" based even though he may have obediently used the terms budo and karate-do. It is also clear he died very annoyed with Nakayama. Mas Oyama is a legend in Japan, as you know, and many think he is Nippon jin. Born in Seoul I believe?

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 5, 2012 - The terms budo and bujutsu are interchangeable for two types of people, the ignorant and those wanting/needing them to be interchangeable. The kanji, which the Japanese language is defined by, are quite different and mean quite different implications. Budo implies there is no enemy and the arts of Japan under budo are gutted of martial intent. Kendo is an example, once a fine sword art, now a stick sport with tournament rules. Okinawa practices the true, only karate.

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 5, 2012 - I agree fully that the karate of Okinawa is the only true karate, that the Japanese have corrupted it to the degree that it is not a martial art but a sport, especially the JKA, and that the west is largely a laughing stock as regards karate because of the western ego and the lure of money. The so called karate of America is pitifully pathetic in the vast majority of cases and there are millions of so called black belts who know absolutely nothing of karate at all.

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 5, 2012 - I began with the JKA in Japan but turned away because it is now a sport and not karate at all. I studied Goju ryu also, but for some years now I have made it a point to try to study only the combative elements of all Okinawan karate, so, in that regard I study ko ryu ho, the old methods. I find Higaonna, Shimabuku, Seneha and an older Uechi ryu-ka whose name I do not know to be the epitome of Okinawan karate and models for martial thinking and practice. Read my channel.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 7, 2012 - ... I have been reading your comments on the youtube for quite some time now and although I understand your point of view and respect your opinions on the history of the art be it Okinawan Te , China hand , Empty hand etc the thing is that it has come to what it is through evolution in much the same way it came to Okinawa via China, I dont want to dwell on it , I just train and learn as much as I can. there is just so much variation in the history I dont know what to believe anymore.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 7, 2012 - ... hope that makes sense ? ... whats important to me is to know basic lineage , respect it , and train the spirit as the number one priority.For the record I agree a lot with " some " of your points you bring to the surface , knowledge is important , i just have seen and heard so many different versions in my time.One thing I would like to ask of you though is " your thoughts on Choki Motubu " ... I cant recall reading anything you may have mentioned about him in your comments.

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 7, 2012 - Consider this: You develop a martial art, it has one very effective punch and you call it Shingitai-ryu. You have a student for a short period that leaves you and starts his own school. He teaches a much different punch and some silly, non combative kicks, sells it as Shingitai-ryu against your objections. Now, is that your art? Is it an evolved version? Or, is it corrupted and a misuse of your arts name? Kind of makes it different when YOU developed it, huh? see 2

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 7, 2012 - 2. Taking a cultural product, such as karate, changing it greatly yet calling it karate is simply corruption of an activity developed by someone else, it can not possibly be the same, only delusion allows one to think that. Karate did not come from China, it existed in Okinawa yet was influenced by Chinese arts. Gong Fu is a relatively new term. Motobu, Choki? I have never seen film of him, so I can not comment except that he had prominance in Okinawa as a karate-ka.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 10, 2012 - ... probably I would yes , but I was not aware of objections by the Okinawa practitioners ?The word evolved implies a lengthy time frame too so I guess it would depend on that also ( but I understand its just a basic analogy at the same time ) But Im not aware of & dont think the Japanese are claiming it as there own art either , more so their own ( modern ) version giving full credit to its origins , but really , I just want to understand the points you are trying to make.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 10, 2012 - It may have changed greatly but they all know the roots of the art , as long as its not claimed to be the original it shouldnt matter much ... I know its not the same ! I know that ( no delusion here ) , but how much Chinese influence seems to vary a lot on " historians " information but I ask why would the Kanji symbol for Kara first translate to " China " if there was not major influence from the Chinese arts.For Funakoshi to change this to " Empty " had reasons of its own too.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 10, 2012 - I ask about Motobu because of his apparent friction , disagreements with Funakoshi , and that students in Okinawa at that time apparently still trained under both teachers , to me this meant the students wanted some of what both had to offer , even though the 2 both had very different ,contrasting methods and direction.I see it much the same now , those who train seriously really want as much as they can get even if its very different in concepts.I would like to msg u soon if ok

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 10, 2012 - That is exactly the issue, the roots are found in original study, that is the study of Okinawann karate. The roots are NOT found in the JKA amd certainly the vast majorityu of the west. The essence is what is missing and that essence is the quality of technique that is developed over time with training for combat, not tournaments, not sports and the tactics for combative application are virtually nonexistent. They are not the same, simple, therefore not karate. Msg? Email?

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 10, 2012 - Give me your email address and I will send you an address IF that is your intention.

IEKUKATAKA Says:

Mar 10, 2012 - I disagree in that I found the JKA training much different in concept and not valuable for my purposes which are: 1. To focus on combat related training only, and, 2. To understand the nature of all Okinawan training and focus on that alone as they did it well and there is little to improve on. Knowing jujitsu, as an example, offers little as the karate of Okinawa contains enough take down and ground training for the expected. Nothing covers all bases.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 11, 2012 - ... I hear you but this is what " you " wanted from your training , we are not all the same so JKA style is enough for others , the original essence may be missing but most who train in any " modern " version of karate know this , and if they dont , they should ! ... obviously some dont , but there are much worse examples of " apparent " karate out there than the JKA version , all sorts of made up " crap " who are very delusional ( Ive seen so many on youtube ) .. it is sad yes !

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 11, 2012 - ... all I can say is that in this day and age of less " feudal " times in which a " pure combat " system is granted it will not be trained and recognized so much ! , SPORT on the other hand consumes society so the " sport " version of karate has thrived somewhat , if that makes sense , but for example " Krav Maga " is more combat geared and those who need it train it ( military , security etc ) Anyway yes I would like to converse via email with u if possible.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 11, 2012 - ... yes thanks , will send in a message , cheers.

shingitai333 Says:

Mar 11, 2012 - yes thats why I mentioned Choki , he had no part in the JKA kick off , only Funakoshi I believe , and I believe this was his beef with Funakoshi in that he was against all the modifications of the Okinawan Te systems he was implementing.and yes I recently learnt that original Okinawan systems had ne waza in them and u know really it didnt surprise me at all , brings up another point the BJJ ppl today know that its roots are in Judo , just the Newaza was refined to another level.

swazia73 Says:

Apr 8, 2012 - they never trained us this way in tae kwon do lol

MrSham3less Says:

May 24, 2012 - that´s why we have Youtube ;D

maidanac Says:

May 28, 2012 - @ Zwasia73: maybe not in your school. I trained like that in both of my schools Tae Kwon Do ITF (Gral Choi was 3rd Dan Shotokan Karate and I don't remember what Dan in Taekkyon before developing TKD Chang Hum style) and TaeKwonDo WTF (old school w/Hapkido). Cheers. :-)